Barry Herbert's account of his three years work.

Rebuilding The 1911 Stanley Type 85.

Model 85's were only built in the year 1911; unfortunately there are no original survivors. Fred Marriott, Head of the maintenance department of the Stanley factory in its heyday, is on record as confirming that Stanley's made 5 Model 85's in 1911. They were similar to a stretched Model 70, slightly wider and with 7 seats (including two jump seats). The engine is the same 30hp as that in the Mountain Wagon but geared 48/60 instead of 40/70, and also working at 600 lbs. Being around one ton lighter than the Mountain Wagon and higher geared it should be a potent beast and a challenger to that Daimler-Doble we hear, and now see, about.
My new Stanley Model 85 reconstructed body has arrived in England and is now at John Goold's workshops. The body is the most accurate Model 85 made. Research has been carried out by its builder Mark Herman with a lot of help from Brent Campbell and Don Bourdon. The Stanley Museum has also had input. Don Bourdon let Mark have his Model 85 at his workshops over the winter in order to get basic measurements worked out, the Stanley Museum lending Mark its original Model 70 body as a research item for constructional details.
The body came with other parts found in America, all in a large container, shipped to Felixstowe and then by road to Hull where it was custom cleared by Pallatine Freight Ltd. Wings, bonnet, etc were copied by Keebaugh's Sheet Metal to Mark's specification. Copper water, paraffin, oil and pilot tanks were made by Mark Herman's own firm. A brass windscreen, complete with fittings, was obtained from a supplier that has now ceased to make them.


Back in England John Hirst, of Longstone Tyres had some 37" x 5" steel rims rolled for me, but only with a minimum order of 5 (which turned out to be a saviour later).

I had Pelican Foundry forge a set of alloy wheels cast in LM25TF Alloy. In the meantime John Goold carried on the research. He made the boiler and burner plate, began rebuilding the differential, the front and rear axles and created some space in his workshops, to take the Model 85 body. The Wheel rims were machined when it was found that one of them was slightly kinked and not up to my and John's standard. It was rejected. Luckily we had a spare to use as 1 had to buy 5 when I only wanted 4 and this fifth one was perfect. This is where it resides at the moment, on trestles, awaiting further action.


My contacts: John Goold Stanley parts. Tel 01634 854422
Mark Herman body builder Tel 001 203 544 1201
Pallatine Freight Tel 001 717 263 4910
Keebaugh's Sheet metal Tel. 001 717 263 4910
Pelican Foundry for alloy wheels. Tel 01634 854422
Longstone Tyres Tel 01629 640227

During November 1998, a set of spring U-bolts arrived from America. These had been cast and machined to an exact 1911 pattern by Mark Herman's firm. Also arriving at John Goold's yard, made by one of John's suppliers, were a beautiful set of springs, complete with the correct "ears" and end fastenings.
John had by this time completed the rebuilding of the front axle, the rear axle and differential. He had made two Perch Rods with the appropriate cross tie rods and cast fittings. He researched the design of the truss rods and various plates for fastening and strengthening the ash wooden body and made these up. He reconstructed the steering gear and I visited his workshop for the setting up of the steering column so it would be at the correct angle to suit me. A dished steering wheel was agreed to be right for this car and a search begun to obtain one.
The wheel castings had by the time of this visit been married to the steel rims and the flaps, inner tubes and tyres fitted. These had been supplied by John Hirst of Longstone Tyres. Michelin of France had moulded the 37" x 5" tyres to an original pattern that they had said was correct for the period. Some extra hand finishing to the wheels is needed which I will carry out when the car has been returned to Little Weighton.
During December and January, the Goold team, having completed the under frame work concentrated their minds (in between many interruptions) on the fitting of the steering components, steering column and steering wheel. They also fitted the various gauges and clocks (previously reconditioned by Anthony Bever). Nickel plating of the fittings would be carried out at Little Weighton. We agreed to a basic layout of the gauges on the main bulkhead to the original Stanley design.
A 26 inch burner plate had been laboriously drilled by Anthony Bever and this was used to make an accurately shaped burner with twin ventures. A boiler had been made months earlier by John and his wife "Fred", and this was trial fitted into the car, a substantial steel framed support being fitted. The main firewall bulkhead is to have an aluminium heat protection plate fitted over it.
Then the "Pumps" were fitted, also the fuel automatic, steam automatic, throttle, feed water heater and various other bits and pieces John Goold's family had recondition or made as necessary previously. They also fitted a donkey pump, (the same type as the one fitted to the mountain wagon), onto the bulkhead under the bonnet which, made by John Liming, is extremely useful to these heavy cars enabling the filling of the boiler, by steam, without the dangerous practice of jacking up the rear wheels. It operates throughout the pressure range of 50 to 600psi, and soon fills a boiler. It can also be used whilst the vehicle is moving which is especially useful if the main pumps begin to fail for any reason. Sufficent water is delivered by the donkey pump making it possible to drive the car on the donkey pump only if you so wish.
Finally, John plumbed up the water system but instead of 5/16" piping used 3/8" to enable an easier water flow to the boiler. He also agreed that it would be better if the two main pumps were separated into two separate systems with two separate clack valves going into the boiler via two separate systems in the Feed Water Heater. One of the systems would be controlled by the steering wheel control lever, the other by the control wheel near the driver's feet. This latter feed would be the one used continually and the one teed-off for the water cooling to the brakes. The steering wheel feed would be used as the "top up supply" and also the one into which the donkey pump would feed the boiler through a 5/16" pipe and "double" clack.
Other jobs carried out were the fitting of the wings and running board irons, followed by the fitting of the front and rear wings themselves, together with the running boards. The brass windscreen framing was fitted together with the brass support rods.
The vehicle was now at a stage to return to Yorkshire for the body to have a complete strip down and be prepared for painting and the fitting of additional items, leaving John and family the task of finishing rebuilding the 30hp engine for which he has most of the castings already made.
The vehicle was delivered to Little Weighton in April 1999. The first job was to spend many hours on the wheels. next, before removing all the parts John Goold had fitted to get back to the bare body, it was decided to have an initial fit of the rear luggage carrier, the spare wheel carrier, horn, etc. This was a very useful exercise and a few adjustments were made here and there to get things correct, and how Mr Stanley would expect.
Having fitted the above the long process of removing all the valves, pumps, gauges, etc. began, marking each part and its appropriate bolts, nuts and other fastenings. This should facilitate easier rebuild after everything has been painted, At present the body sits on its wheels and the whole body, inside and out, has received three coats of West System Epoxy resin and has been sanded down ready for the paint shop. This exercise will ensure that the whole body is fully waterproof and oil proof and ensure a long life.
All the 1911 Stanley's were painted in Brewster Green and a Yellow. I have traced the "Brewster Green" paint. It is a colour used by Rolls Royce for their old cars of 1909. Its DuPont Ref: No, is W7959. To go with this Brewster Green the wheels and under gear are to be finished in "Primrose", a British Standard Colour Ref: BS310 with a DuPont Code No. W8474.
At the Yorkshire Rally in May, these colours were checked out against Diana's 1909 Model E2 which still has its original Stanley Green paint on it. The Green matched exactly and the Primrose was confirmed by Don Bourdon, who was on that tour, as the correct shade of Yellow used for a large Touring Car. It needs to be a paler shade than the smaller cars which had a brighter yellow. I was very pleased that I now had the correct colour scheme. On the Mount Washington trip I have been invited by Don to check out his Model 85 for the correct way to line out such a car. He informs me that the lining was done in "Old Gold". I am now researching this colour, as it is a Paint Colour and not Gold Leaf. The wings, luggage carrier and some other bits and pieces have already gone to the paint shop. These are all to be finished in the standard Gloss Black.
The next job is the remaking of the top bows for the hood. Originally these would be steam bent Ash. However, a better way of making them is to laminate them out of "bendy ply". I have made a steel pattern for this operation and will use the West System resin to laminate them with. I already have the metal 3-bow sockets and extension for these bows to fit into.
The car is booked to go to the paint shop in September. It is also booked to have its upholstery made in November/ December. The correct leather and canvas, etc has been ordered for this.
A full set of lights, i.e. two Neverout acetelene headlights, two oil sidelights and two handed oil rear lamps has been obtained in America.
The car was in the Paint Shop a total of ten weeks. It has come out looking absolutely magnificent. The final 3/64 inch Coach Lining was carried out in a paint colour called "Old/Antique Gold" which, I am assured by the Americans, is the colour Stanley used in 1911. It certainly looks alright. All the 144 photographs I took of a Model 85 whilst at Mount Washington, much to everyone's amusement, paid off in getting this painting and lining correct. The car spent a few days at Little Weighton, whilst I refitted the mudguards, running boards, windscreen, etc. and then it was sent to Ann Taylor, at "Protectus" a local firm of upholsterers, who perform work on antique Bentley and Rolls Royce cars and came with an excellent pedigree.
The Stanley was there for a total of seven weeks having all the seats made in genuine leather with the hood and side valances fitted in matching hides. Some leather was also used on the hood irons and oil-boots were made for the front steering joints. The 1911 Stanley's were fitted with leather oil-boots and John Goold kindly lent me an original one from his collection. A slip cover was also made for the car and a pair of corner side curtains to protect the rear seat passengers from any rain. Whilst the painting and upholstery was being carried out I obtained some brown linoleum and covered the floorboards with it. The outside edges of these had round headed brass upholstery nails fastened in them every 3 inches or so. 0riginally the lino would not have been stuck down but just fastened with these upholstery nails, presumably because the glues available at that time were no good. The rear tonneau floor also has a black carpet on it.
Concurrently, John Goold and his family are gradually getting the engine together, using original parts were possible. Help was also given by Gerry Stoneman in obtaining certain parts. The engine was tested and run for a period of five hours on the steam from one of John's Sentinel boilers coupled to an automatic oil pump. In this way the engine could be kept running at various speeds without worrying too much about the steam-oil supply. Meanwhile the boiler, burner, extra 50 gallon water tank, etc. were being installed and piped up, as were the rest of the fittings. The last remaining job being the installation of the engine and its steam pipe work. A quick trip will be made to the paint shop to paint and line the rear differential casing cover and the 3 year project comes to an end.
The car visited its first tour in Norfolk during May 2000, organised by Vicki and Basil Craske. To say that it went like a dream is an understatement. For a car that is, effectively, "just out the box", I could not have expected anything better. The problems I had were minor ones and all relate to the fine tuning the vehicle will receive over the coming months. The first problem was pointed out by a passing motorist. He pointed out the fact that the offside wheel was smoking, the cause was an over adjustment of the parking brake, easily cured by minor adjustment. A bit of paintwork was ruined on the wheel but as the car has to go back to the paint shop for final painting of the differential, this will be attended to at that time.
During this first day the car cruised at around 35/40 mph but was consuming a very large quantity of water. The tank holds 39 imperial gallons and I was having to fill up every 15/20 miles. The problem here was that the car needs more notching up. Also the notching up pawl was jumping out of its slot when the car was pulling hard. As a temporary cure we used wedge of wood behind the levers near the driver's feet and this cured the jumping out problem but not the water consumption. I had hydrant gear and there were plenty of filling up places, so resolved to cure the consumption problem at some later date. The main problem I had was the poor braking in general.
On the second day Anthony Bever decided to have a day off driving and joined Sandra and myself on the Model 85. Throughout the day the wind was extremely strong and blustery. The pilot kept getting blown out but the automatic ignition system came into play and relit it every time. I made a note to look at the pilot later in the week. Water consumption was still high as expected but the piece of wood served us well. Throughout this day, Anthony and I, together with Basil, had a go at adjusting the brakes. We got them finally to the best setting. However, the setting is critical and even then does not slow down the car as I would have expected. The brake shoes are trailing and leading and it may be that they need changing to both leading, and softer linings. The other thought is to go for front disc brakes. Although not original they do stop you safely. With a car weighing in at 2.5 tons and with up to 7 people on board, I need good brakes, especially in today's traffic. I will be giving further thought to this.
On the third day of the rally, Thursday, one of the stops was in a village called "Loddon". We had made a coffee stop, after which time and came to get steam up. A little old dear was taking a picture of the car and making sure that everyone was out of her "frame". She had a "Canon" camera that lived up to its name when I caused an almighty explosion. Poor old dear, she had never had such a fright in all her life. It would be interesting to see which way her camera was pointing when it happened and what picture she actually took. The explosion raised the boiler top cover about two inches. It was easily put back in place as I had designed it to do just that. Luckily the bonnet itself was not damaged. The cause was the gas pilot not burning correctly due to the pressure of the gas not being high enough. This low pressure caused a few more explosions and was corrected on return home when the lock pin was removed from the Calor Gas fitting making it adjustable. The pilot flame now operates with a flame like the Mountain Wagon had and should not extinguish in a strong wind.
This was the end of the tour. However we stayed over the weekend with Vicki and Basil. On the Sunday the car had a full load of Sandra and myself, Vicki and Basil, John Liming and Madge. It was filled up with 90 gallons of water, 18 gallons of fuel and a full boiler. I would guess the car weighed in at 2.5 tons. Did this affect the performance? No. It just went as before, like a bat out of hell.
A little bit of experimenting was also carried out by Basil and me. We notched up the car further with the help of a few bits of wood and plastic. The surprise was that at the final setting we obtained 17 miles out of the under half a tank of water. It was achieving over 30 miles between fill ups (ignoring the belly tank). We were also "clocked", by Sandra in the Landcruiser, at a continuous speed of 45 mph, a speed restricted due to the twisty roads.
The car has now returned home. As you can see the problems were all minor ones, easily resolved. The car is a credit to the craftsmanship of John Goold and his sons. I could not have wished for a better looking car, better performance and such an enjoyable tour. There was a smile on my face all week - about time some of you might say!